Don't blame the rape victims! (From Evesham Journal)

I don't understand why certain people make out that this sort of campaign means that it's implying that rape is the woman's fault. If there was a campaign telling you to lock your door at night, or to keep your belongings on you at all times, or to beware of pickpockets, that is not implying that it is your fault if you are robbed. There are bad people out there, and you should protect yourself from them. If you don't, it doesn't condone the bad persons behaviour in anyway, but there may have been something you could've done to prevent it.

You may get cancer if you smoke, you may get robbed if you leave your phone on the pub bar, you may get robbed if you leave your front door open when you go on holiday, you may get run over if you walk out into the road without looking. If you get so drunk you pass out, wearing next to nothing, without anyone trustworthy there to look after you, you may get assaulted. Do you deserve to get cancer if you smoke? Or deserve to robbed if you leave the door open? Do you deserve to get raped if you are unconscious and half naked? Of course not. But if you hadn't have done those things, you'd have a much better chance to avoid becoming a victim.

The police have done nothing wrong here. If it happens to prevent a rape, why would it not be a good thing. I certainly can't see it condoning, or increasing counts of rape.

Well said.

ushmush83 wrote:
I don't understand why certain people make out that this sort of campaign means that it's implying that rape is the woman's fault. If there was a campaign telling you to lock your door at night, or to keep your belongings on you at all times, or to beware of pickpockets, that is not implying that it is your fault if you are robbed. There are bad people out there, and you should protect yourself from them. If you don't, it doesn't condone the bad persons behaviour in anyway, but there may have been something you could've done to prevent it. You may get cancer if you smoke, you may get robbed if you leave your phone on the pub bar, you may get robbed if you leave your front door open when you go on holiday, you may get run over if you walk out into the road without looking. If you get so drunk you pass out, wearing next to nothing, without anyone trustworthy there to look after you, you may get assaulted. Do you deserve to get cancer if you smoke? Or deserve to robbed if you leave the door open? Do you deserve to get raped if you are unconscious and half naked? Of course not. But if you hadn't have done those things, you'd have a much better chance to avoid becoming a victim. The police have done nothing wrong here. If it happens to prevent a rape, why would it not be a good thing. I certainly can't see it condoning, or increasing counts of rape.

At present we still teach women not to get raped rather than teach men not to rape. I am pleased that West Mercia have a balanced approach. It's pretty shocking that people still have the opinion that you do ushmush83. Rape is a very personal crime, it goes everywhere with you. It is also difficult to prove, therefore the conviction rate is very low.....and people still have the opinion that on some level it is always the woman's fault.

Agreed.

Anti-rape campaigns are nothing new and there are some 'sensible police led'campaigns and resource materials available. Sadly this poster by West Mercia Police is not one of them.
This campaign suggests that if you drink sensibly then you can somehow 'avoid' being raped. The notion that there is anything a victim of rape - a crime in which a person is forced into sex - can do to 'avoid' sexual violation is absurd.
Alcohol is a vulnerability factor and drinking to excess is unhealthy but the cause of rape is rapists and the responsibility for the crime sits wholly with the perpetrator.
Our culture and justice system still suggests that if you have been drinking then you are somehow culpable or responsible for someone else's actions (i.e. the rapist). Whether either or both of the parties involved have been drinking is largely irrelevant. 100% of the responsibility for forcing one's penis into another persons mouth, anus or a womans vagina lies with the man who chooses those actions.
There are sensible anti-rape campaigns available that do not blame the victim and feed into the myths and stereotypes which surround sexual violence. We are deeply disappointed that the police chose to use this campaign and chose not to consult with us or other partners. It gives us no pleasure whatsoever to have to challenge the police in this way and we hope that in future we will be able to work in partnership to develop a more appropriate campaign.

Agree totally with Ushmush83 and the police.
Pinkfluff and wmrsasc you are both deliberately "crossing the road" to be offended.
Do you believe children should be allowed to roam on their own, or do we take precautions against them being attacked or abducted?
The message is clearly that there are bad people out there and it is sensible to do what you can to avoid any nasty situations.
Yes a rapist is totally responsible for their actions!

wmrsasc wrote:
Anti-rape campaigns are nothing new and there are some 'sensible police led'campaigns and resource materials available. Sadly this poster by West Mercia Police is not one of them.
This campaign suggests that if you drink sensibly then you can somehow 'avoid' being raped. The notion that there is anything a victim of rape - a crime in which a person is forced into sex - can do to 'avoid' sexual violation is absurd.
Alcohol is a vulnerability factor and drinking to excess is unhealthy but the cause of rape is rapists and the responsibility for the crime sits wholly with the perpetrator.
Our culture and justice system still suggests that if you have been drinking then you are somehow culpable or responsible for someone else's actions (i.e. the rapist). Whether either or both of the parties involved have been drinking is largely irrelevant. 100% of the responsibility for forcing one's penis into another persons mouth, anus or a womans vagina lies with the man who chooses those actions.
There are sensible anti-rape campaigns available that do not blame the victim and feed into the myths and stereotypes which surround sexual violence. We are deeply disappointed that the police chose to use this campaign and chose not to consult with us or other partners. It gives us no pleasure whatsoever to have to challenge the police in this way and we hope that in future we will be able to work in partnership to develop a more appropriate campaign.

Ok pinkfluff, I don't see how anything I said, or anything the poster campaign says that makes out rape is the victims fault. If an opportunistic criminal (of a generic crime) comes across an easy target, we do not blame the target for being easy, in actual fact most people would judge that as a worse crime i.e. mugging an old lady, child abuse or raping an incapacitated woman. However, you'd still tell an elderly relative to be cautious about opening the door to strangers wouldn't you? You still tell your children not to go out alone don't you? Does a parent deserve to have their child kidnapped if they take their eye off the child for a few seconds? Hell, no. But would that crime have happened if they were watching the whole time? Probably not, certainly a better chance of preventing it. Does it excuse the criminal, because he thought the parents were 'asking for it'? No, of course not. Would you ever blame a poseter campaign, that advises parents to heed close attention to their children due to a history of kidnapping in the area, of relieving kidnappers of responsibility?

wmrsasc, of course you can do things to try to prevent crime. Do you lock your door at night? You talk about removal of responsibility, sounds like you're trying to blame the police, don't forget, how can they be responsible for someone else's actions? And please give an example of a more appropriate campaign: "RAPISTS, please don't rape" perhaps?

Ushmus83 makes an interesting point - a campaign targetting rapists instead of victims. It would certainly get my support and has been successfully addressed by Thames Valley police 'don't cross the line' campaign and Lambeth Council's 'do you know the difference' campaign which acknowledges that most rapes take place between people who know each other and the need to obtain consent. If you are interested, check them out.

Women are raped when they are drunk or sober, when they are wearing jeans or a short skirt, when they are outdoors or indoors. When they are awake or asleep when they are at home or work or school. The linking factor is not the womans behaviour it is the rapists.

I do not talk about removing responsibility, I talk about placing the responsibility for the rape remaining wholly with the rapist.

pinkfluff wrote:

ushmush83 wrote: I don't understand why certain people make out that this sort of campaign means that it's implying that rape is the woman's fault. If there was a campaign telling you to lock your door at night, or to keep your belongings on you at all times, or to beware of pickpockets, that is not implying that it is your fault if you are robbed. There are bad people out there, and you should protect yourself from them. If you don't, it doesn't condone the bad persons behaviour in anyway, but there may have been something you could've done to prevent it. You may get cancer if you smoke, you may get robbed if you leave your phone on the pub bar, you may get robbed if you leave your front door open when you go on holiday, you may get run over if you walk out into the road without looking. If you get so drunk you pass out, wearing next to nothing, without anyone trustworthy there to look after you, you may get assaulted. Do you deserve to get cancer if you smoke? Or deserve to robbed if you leave the door open? Do you deserve to get raped if you are unconscious and half naked? Of course not. But if you hadn't have done those things, you'd have a much better chance to avoid becoming a victim. The police have done nothing wrong here. If it happens to prevent a rape, why would it not be a good thing. I certainly can't see it condoning, or increasing counts of rape.

At present we still teach women not to get raped rather than teach men not to rape. I am pleased that West Mercia have a balanced approach. It's pretty shocking that people still have the opinion that you do ushmush83. Rape is a very personal crime, it goes everywhere with you. It is also difficult to prove, therefore the conviction rate is very low.....and people still have the opinion that on some level it is always the woman's fault.

SOME people might think that. Give stats regarding how many, please, because you seem to be implying that this is a generalised view, which seems like nonsense to me.

The police campaign seems to be doing no more than giving advice equivalent to an anti-smoking or drink-driving campaign.

wmrsasc wrote:
Ushmus83 makes an interesting point - a campaign targetting rapists instead of victims. It would certainly get my support and has been successfully addressed by Thames Valley police 'don't cross the line' campaign and Lambeth Council's 'do you know the difference' campaign which acknowledges that most rapes take place between people who know each other and the need to obtain consent. If you are interested, check them out. Women are raped when they are drunk or sober, when they are wearing jeans or a short skirt, when they are outdoors or indoors. When they are awake or asleep when they are at home or work or school. The linking factor is not the womans behaviour it is the rapists. I do not talk about removing responsibility, I talk about placing the responsibility for the rape remaining wholly with the rapist.

Which is of course exactly where it belongs.

But it would be criminal not to give helpful advice to women to help them avoid risk.

Campaigns such as 'do you know the difference' are no doubt a good idea.

Thing is, though the overwhelming majority of men DO know the difference, and would never even dream of raping anyone.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't be reminded, of course. And rapists should be found, prosecuted and punished.

But I would suggest the 'outrage' over this campaign sounds remarkably synthetic.

It's always the fault of the men.

ushmush83 wrote:
I don't understand why certain people make out that this sort of campaign means that it's implying that rape is the woman's fault. If there was a campaign telling you to lock your door at night, or to keep your belongings on you at all times, or to beware of pickpockets, that is not implying that it is your fault if you are robbed. There are bad people out there, and you should protect yourself from them. If you don't, it doesn't condone the bad persons behaviour in anyway, but there may have been something you could've done to prevent it.

You may get cancer if you smoke, you may get robbed if you leave your phone on the pub bar, you may get robbed if you leave your front door open when you go on holiday, you may get run over if you walk out into the road without looking. If you get so drunk you pass out, wearing next to nothing, without anyone trustworthy there to look after you, you may get assaulted. Do you deserve to get cancer if you smoke? Or deserve to robbed if you leave the door open? Do you deserve to get raped if you are unconscious and half naked? Of course not. But if you hadn't have done those things, you'd have a much better chance to avoid becoming a victim.

The police have done nothing wrong here. If it happens to prevent a rape, why would it not be a good thing. I certainly can't see it condoning, or increasing counts of rape.

Agree with you 100% on your comments

And what about when men get raped? Nobody ever asks to be raped. End of. It's always about women who get sexually assaulted, abused or raped but most people do forget that it can happen to men as well.

Raising awareness about the risks of excessive drinking and the potential for negative consequences is a good thing. Sadly rape can sometimes be one of those consequences... This isn't to lay blame on anyone, but it is a fact.

ushmush83's comment - the first in this chain, is absolutely right and spot on..........a degree of common sense has to be injected here into the discussion.......yes
, any crime of this nature is appalling and often tragic for the victims involved.....but these kinds of situations tend to be very complex and far more involved than what is implied by pinkfluff's comments......people have a responsibility to look after themselves and this applies to victims of sexual offences just as much as victims of other offences, yes, rape is a horrendous crime and will very often carry consequences for the rest of the victims life - i don't diminish that in any way, but you don't leave your doors and windows open in an area known for a spate of burglaries, the crimes are different but the points the same, we all have a responsibility to look after ourselves, thats not blaming the victim in any way, just common sense.......in the final analysis rape and sexual offences are about the power and control the perpetrator has over the victim, to suggest that the victim shouldn't take precautions to look after themselves is to actually take a degree of power away from the victim and in my view could prevent the recovery process after anything terrible has happened.......

I have not said I was offended, I said I was shocked. I am entitled to my thoughts, feelings and opinions.

I have my facts from The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard.

I don't believe that poor attitudes towards females are being dealt with. Developing girls are being teased, touched and assaulted in our schools on a regular basis. It's described as bullying, however it's not, it's sexual assault and the young lads who are involved in that kind of behaviour need to know that it's never acceptable....and taught that it is sexual assault and sexual harrassment.

You are right Mobey and I totally agree with you but all too often people will not report the crimes because they are too humiliated and it's unlikely to get a conviction. Most rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. Why?? because most of the victims feel that on some level it's their fault. Unfortunatly this campaign does appear reinforce that message.

I am sure that there are plenty of other crimes where people believe that the victim was partly to blame.

why is it if i go into a pub and grab a woman on the backside i would quite rightly end up spending a few months in prison and placed on the sex offenders register and my life would be in tatters,yet if a female did the same thing then no action would be taken and the female would get away with it.and as a father of two daughters i think the poster is a good idea,i certainly have no problem with it,and nowhere on this poster does it suggest that a woman wont get raped if she stays sober.if this poster stops one female from getting raped then it will have been worth it.me,and as for me,i try to stay clear of drunk females anyway,even if it means crossing the road to avoid them :-)

WAG2315 wrote:
why is it if i go into a pub and grab a woman on the backside i would quite rightly end up spending a few months in prison and placed on the sex offenders register and my life would be in tatters,yet if a female did the same thing then no action would be taken and the female would get away with it.and as a father of two daughters i think the poster is a good idea,i certainly have no problem with it,and nowhere on this poster does it suggest that a woman wont get raped if she stays sober.if this poster stops one female from getting raped then it will have been worth it.me,and as for me,i try to stay clear of drunk females anyway,even if it means crossing the road to avoid them :-)

that shouldve said "yet if a female did the same thing to me then no action would be taken and the female would get away with it" :-)

pinkfluff wrote:
I have not said I was offended, I said I was shocked. I am entitled to my thoughts, feelings and opinions.

I have my facts from The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard.

I don't believe that poor attitudes towards females are being dealt with. Developing girls are being teased, touched and assaulted in our schools on a regular basis. It's described as bullying, however it's not, it's sexual assault and the young lads who are involved in that kind of behaviour need to know that it's never acceptable....and taught that it is sexual assault and sexual harrassment.

You are right Mobey and I totally agree with you but all too often people will not report the crimes because they are too humiliated and it's unlikely to get a conviction. Most rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. Why?? because most of the victims feel that on some level it's their fault. Unfortunatly this campaign does appear reinforce that message.

I am sure that there are plenty of other crimes where people believe that the victim was partly to blame.

pinkfluff - you are assuming that all victims are female and all perpetrators are male - this is not the case - look at any set of crime stats. rape and sexual assault is about power and control - the power and control that the perpetrator has over the victim - this type of poster in some way i think helps the victim get back a bit of control.........so that has got to be good......you talk about girls being sexually assaulted in our schools on a regular basis - sorry, i think you're way off here - yes, bullying may occur - but at a very young age the 'young lads' (your words) probably haven't even heard of the words 'sexual assault' - and what about girls bullying boys? is that sexual assault? why do you assume that when boys bully girls it is sexual assault and not the other way round - life is more complicated than that.......

When I said agreed that was with Ushmush 100%. Pinkfluff, I can't see yours or the people in the article moaning about in the poster campaigns point at all. In effect, as people before me have said, it's basically a campaign to say take care of yourself. I doubt a poster campaign saying "Don't Rape" would have the same impact to a rapist as this one might to a potential victim.

pinkfluff wrote:
I have not said I was offended, I said I was shocked. I am entitled to my thoughts, feelings and opinions. I have my facts from The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard. I don't believe that poor attitudes towards females are being dealt with. Developing girls are being teased, touched and assaulted in our schools on a regular basis. It's described as bullying, however it's not, it's sexual assault and the young lads who are involved in that kind of behaviour need to know that it's never acceptable....and taught that it is sexual assault and sexual harrassment. You are right Mobey and I totally agree with you but all too often people will not report the crimes because they are too humiliated and it's unlikely to get a conviction. Most rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. Why?? because most of the victims feel that on some level it's their fault. Unfortunatly this campaign does appear reinforce that message. I am sure that there are plenty of other crimes where people believe that the victim was partly to blame.

The fact that 'you don't believe something' is your affair.

Saying that 'developing girls are being teased, touched' etc is meaningless. It implies that there is some kind of playground sexual Armageddon going on RIGHT NOW!!!

You don't give figures, you just generalise to create an impression. A bit like someone getting the opinion of two people in the street, and saying 'people believe that....'. It's not exactly untrue, but it's not necessarily true, either.

No doubt kids, of both genders, do bad things to other kids, of both genders. If they didn't, they'd be the first generation in history not to.

Anyone, male or female, who inflicts sexual violence on anyone else should be prosecuted and punished. This initiative is not contradicting that, merely pointing out some wise precautions.

The 'outrage' is synthetic and, I suspect, at least partly agenda-driven.

I totally agree with pinkfluff and wmrsasc. It doesn't matter how much you drink or don't drink, or if you get into a taxi with someone then changes their mind then says no, rape is rape regardless ... at the point someone says no, or is unable to actually say a (coherent, informed) yes or no, then any sexual contact is non-consensual, therefore rape. Some of these comments and the WM poster (I think unintentionally) are portraying a tone that places blame of the person that has been raped, almost insighting that they brought it on themselves by not being responsible enough. Some commenters also carry the tone that if you don't take responsibility for your own welfare (whether that be locking your car properly, wearing short skirts, getting very drunk) then they 'were asking for trouble' or 'deserve' to be victim of a crime'. I know none of you intended to say that, but that is your tone if you step back and look at what you are actually saying.

I totally agree that more research and campaigns also needs to highlight the prevalence and impact of male rape, and I do know there are many organisations advocating this, but in little ole Worcester/West Mercia, we are a little behind the times unfortunately.

And, for those who don't know, the commenter 'wmrsasc' is not a person per se, but a charitable organisation:
West Midlands Rape and Sexual Abuse Support Centre. With highly trained professionals, counsellors, researchers and advocacy workers who work with survivors of rape and sexual abuse. They have a telephone support line run by the Worcester leg of this organisation (wrsasc) so deal with calls from survivors of rape everyday. So ... if anyone has a good standpoint in these posts, it is an organisation that support survivors of rape and have a vast knowledge of this horrific crime.

I don't know if you are allowed to post links here (?) ... but this is the link to worcestershire rape and sexual abuse support centre. http://www.wrsasc.or
g.uk/

//And, for those who don't know, the commenter 'wmrsasc' is not a person per se, but a charitable organisation:
West Midlands Rape and Sexual Abuse Support Centre. With highly trained professionals, counsellors, researchers and advocacy workers who work with survivors of rape and sexual abuse. They have a telephone support line run by the Worcester leg of this organisation (wrsasc) so deal with calls from survivors of rape everyday. So ... if anyone has a good standpoint in these posts, it is an organisation that support survivors of rape and have a vast knowledge of this horrific crime.”//

No doubt they do. But they also have a vested interest in 'bigging it up'.

As far as I can see, no one is trying to play rape down, or condone it.

The only issue is with the one-sided 'fury' over what amounts to sensible advice.

I think that sometimes things get lost in translation the police were trying to highlight dangers of women who drink too much getting home safely. I think it's good to put out controversial literature to highlight a problem. And this poster clearly does this. We have a social problem where binge drinking is a way of life and obviously women should be allowed to drink excessively without fear but if this poster makes one person think then great. I'm sure the intention of this poster was to make people think I am always telling my daughter only to get into black cabs and to get number on license.

Imho......

Men should report sexual assaults.

Both men and women should be warned about the dangers of binge drinking so they get home safely, not just women.

I think that some of the commentors on here are naive. I am prepared to share just a few of my experiences....I have been sexually harrassed and sexually assualted at three different jobs......I have only ever had five jobs in total.

I have lost count of the times I have been touched or groped in bars and clubs. Groups of men stand around and touch women as they walk past which amuses them no end. Because they are in a group it is pretty much impossible to tell which one has touched you. This kind of "fun" starts at secondary school and is not correctly dealt with. As I said earlier it should be deemed sexual assault rather than bullying.

These are the experiences I am prepared to share publically but lets just say thats the tip of the iceberg of my experiences. I don't want to upset myself or cause distress to any other readers.

I do know that some will blame me for what has happened.....I have been told that I should expect this kind of treatment because I am a "pretty girl".
This is far more common than people realise and a much bigger problem.

No I don't blame anyone who has had a terrible unwanted experience, but I repeat it's not just the men who get all dolled up in the alluring and fashionable way, then onto the town. And its not only the men who express their wish to give someone something.. The night on the town is as organised for the girls as the boys, and for those who think otherwise they need to wake up to 2012 and the huge changes in morals. And there are times after a meeting of like minded folk then one of them (often in a relationship or marriage) suddenly thinks there may be very awkward questions or are suddenly deeply ashamed of their own consenting actions, they care not to answer, they shout no permission.
No of course no one should be forced to do anything against their will but there are several sides to this problem.

I think a few people are missing the main point of this campaign and are just jumping on the band wagon because WN has made out that there's been another big scandal.

It is merely pointing out that by being intoxicated you are increasing your risk of becoming another rape victim.

Nowhere on the poster does it say "Women, stop dressing up like tarts" or anything else. But judging by everyone's outcries about it you would think it had!

At the end of the day, alcohol is a drug. And as with any drugs, it significantly alters your reactions, perceptions, and abilities.

To summarise, the campaign is merely telling women to be aware of the dangers of rape when they are intoxicated, as it can make them an easier target.

How anybody can misinterpret this campaign is beyond me.

Rizla1 wrote:
I think a few people are missing the main point of this campaign and are just jumping on the band wagon because WN has made out that there's been another big scandal.

It is merely pointing out that by being intoxicated you are increasing your risk of becoming another rape victim.

Nowhere on the poster does it say "Women, stop dressing up like tarts" or anything else. But judging by everyone's outcries about it you would think it had!

At the end of the day, alcohol is a drug. And as with any drugs, it significantly alters your reactions, perceptions, and abilities.

To summarise, the campaign is merely telling women to be aware of the dangers of rape when they are intoxicated, as it can make them an easier target.

How anybody can misinterpret this campaign is beyond me.

I feel that you have missed the point and I suspect that the matter will have to remain beyond you.

I am sorry but if any crime is going to take place, it's going to happen no matter what precautions you have taken. If someone wants to break in to a property and steal all of your belongings then they are going to do it weather or not you have locked your door. The same applies to rape, no matter what state the woman is in fully clothed with jumpers jeans and coats or walking down the road naked if a rapist wants to rape someone they will. I bet none of you you who are commenting have been a victim of a crime and if you have then I apologise but until you have been in a victim then you do not know what it is like and posters like these make the victims feel guilty and may not want to report it to the police as they may feel responsible for what has happened. Nobody has the right to lay their hands on another person man or woman!

Good letter.

Okay,
I think what the police have tried to do here is completely the right thing. Their campaign in whole is objective - they are merely highlighting a persons vulnerability on a night out with aim to increase awareness of the scourge that is rape.

They have been successful. Why? Just look at the publicity it's received, loads of people are discussing it so therefore i'd say their awareness campaign has made people... well... aware!

The fact that the content of the campaign is being criticised is subjective and so therefore serves little or no purpose on influencing the task in hand (awareness campaign).

So, in conclusion whether or not one thinks the campaign content is flawed it has achieved what it set out to do, which is to get into people's heads.

That said I don't think the police are the 'experts' when it comes to sensitive campaigns of this nature so I look forward to seeing a better and improved campaign by the WMRSASC.

no pinkfluff, its you who has completely missed the point.........

Thirtyishmish, I disagree. The majority of criminals look for an easy opportunity and only if it doesn't present itself do they make more effort to commit their crimes.

thirtyishmish wrote:
I am sorry but if any crime is going to take place, it's going to happen no matter what precautions you have taken. If someone wants to break in to a property and steal all of your belongings then they are going to do it weather or not you have locked your door. The same applies to rape, no matter what state the woman is in fully clothed with jumpers jeans and coats or walking down the road naked if a rapist wants to rape someone they will. I bet none of you you who are commenting have been a victim of a crime and if you have then I apologise but until you have been in a victim then you do not know what it is like and posters like these make the victims feel guilty and may not want to report it to the police as they may feel responsible for what has happened. Nobody has the right to lay their hands on another person man or woman!

Rubbish. The majority of crimes are opportunistic. That's why there have been campaigns in the past to not 'give theives an easy ride', and not leave valuables on display in your car, and neighbourhood watch etc.

If rape was different, then why are cases of rape becoming more and more common amongst the young and drunk in our towns up and down the country, and also abroad, in places like Magaluf? Completely opportunistic.

I'm going to comment here and it will probably get me a load of grief. I read the poster and thought what a **** good campaign, not once did it cross my mind that this was in any way blaming the girl/guy for drinking to much .. however .. what I will say is this, if I go out one night and I choose to drink myself into a state of near unconsciousness then get in my car and drive, hitting and injuring someone .. do I get the chance to say "sorry I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing" as part of my defense and then be let of? I'm certainly not saying that it is the rape victims fault if they get attacked, however I am saying we should be a little bit more responsible for our actions and perhaps not drink ourselves into a stupor every weekend.
To Pinkfluff I say this .. where do you draw the line, will it be a case of charging little boys when they play doctors and nurses or I'll show you mine if you show me yours, learning about out own bodies and the opposite sex is a learning curve, the vast majority of us find out very quickly what is allowed and what is not, by drawing attention to it all you create a scenario of "If I can't do it, it must be good" or the typically bloody mindedness of teenage kids who will pretty much do the exact opposite of what you tell them to do.
Personally I think the campaign doesn't go far enough it should detail the things that can happen if you over indulge, both to men and women.

Colin J Marschall wrote:
I'm going to comment here and it will probably get me a load of grief. I read the poster and thought what a **** good campaign, not once did it cross my mind that this was in any way blaming the girl/guy for drinking to much .. however .. what I will say is this, if I go out one night and I choose to drink myself into a state of near unconsciousness then get in my car and drive, hitting and injuring someone .. do I get the chance to say "sorry I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing" as part of my defense and then be let of? I'm certainly not saying that it is the rape victims fault if they get attacked, however I am saying we should be a little bit more responsible for our actions and perhaps not drink ourselves into a stupor every weekend. To Pinkfluff I say this .. where do you draw the line, will it be a case of charging little boys when they play doctors and nurses or I'll show you mine if you show me yours, learning about out own bodies and the opposite sex is a learning curve, the vast majority of us find out very quickly what is allowed and what is not, by drawing attention to it all you create a scenario of "If I can't do it, it must be good" or the typically bloody mindedness of teenage kids who will pretty much do the exact opposite of what you tell them to do. Personally I think the campaign doesn't go far enough it should detail the things that can happen if you over indulge, both to men and women.

Draw the line at intent. I have offered my opinion, if you disagree then fair enough of course.

I don't really wish to comment any more or have any further questions directed at me. I don't know how else I can express myself other than what I have already said.

I regularly comment on this site but this article and comments has been really difficult for me. So much so that I found it difficult to switch off for a couple of days, was heavy on my mind. Feel much brighter now though.

Clever and effective poster

I have read all of the above comments with great interest - some of the comments are well written, considered and thought through - others highlight the lack of understanding of the issues surrounding sexual violence and common misconceptions and it is these that underpin the reason for challenging this campaign.

In 2005 Amnesty international conducted research that showed that around 29% of people fell that a woman is at least partially responsible for her own rape if she had been drinking or was flirting. 64% felt that a person should take responsibility if they had drunk to excess or blackout. This view is certainly reflected in some of the comments above.

It is estimated (HM Govt 2009) that around 10,000 women are sexually assaulted and that 2,000 women are raped every week and that each adult rape costs (in terms of health care, finance etc) around £96,000 (HM Govt. 2011). The United nations cited that "for women between the ages of 15 & 44 rape and domestic violence are higher risk factors for death and disability than are cancer, war and motor vehicle accidents" (cited in Horvath 2010).

It is estimated that one in four women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime (Stern 2010).

Victims of rape and sexual violence need to be believed, treated with dignity and be reassured that it was not their fault. No one asks to be raped and no one can ever be accused of contributing to their rape.

Ushmush - you say that crimes are opportunistic - rapes are not. They are pre-planned, considered and will in around 86% of cases perpetrated by someone you know. Alcohol does not cause sexual violence but it is often used to excuse violent behaviour, to blame victims and to incapacitate victims. It is not opportunistic to spike someones drink (most commonly with more alcohol) it is planned and considered.

Colin Marschall considers the impact of drunk driving however his scenario would make him the perpetrator not the victim. No one would blame the victim of the accident or accuse them of not taking responsibility for themselves no matter how much they had been drinking.

There are many reasons why people seek to apportion blame to rape victims. The most common is self protection - individuals seek to blame a victim of rape to maintain a sense of their own, or their loved ones invulnerability to rape or the oncept of a 'just world' where bad things happen to bad people.
No one wants to think that they or their loved ones could be violated in this way so it is easier to find a way to blame the victim and retain their own concept of safety.

However if you or someone you cared about was raped would you want them to be treated with compassion and respect and feel able; should they choose to; report to the police or would you want to consider what they were wearing or how much they had been drinking? It is never the victim's fault - rapists cause rape.

Rape is a horrific crime- it is unique in the way that it stikes at the bodily integrity and self respect of the victim. Its impact is far reaching and deeply damaging impacting not only of the victim but their friends and family. It is a gendered crime with the vast majority of victims being women and the perpetrators being male. Around 8% of all recorded rape cases is the rape of a man (Walker 2009). It is not 'regretful sex' as the poster said it is rape and unlike other forms of assault, rape violates personal, intimate and psychological boundaries and is; according to the United nations 2008; "the most pervasive human rights violation that we know today"

Sexual violence is one of the few areas that is still surrounded by myths and stereotypes. Often people's views will only change when they, or someone close to them, becomes a victim. For us, as an organisation (West Mercia Rape & Sexual Abuse Support Centre) it is part of our role to challenge these myths and to consider the impact that posters like this have on the women we work with or will work with in the future.

To pink fluff, and others - thank you for taking the time to comment honestly and openly on this subject - it is much appreciated.
Pink fluff also raised the issue of sexual violence in schools - should anyone wish to read further the NSPCC has a range of papers on violence in teenage relationship (2009) premature sexualisation (2010) and the impact of childhood sexual abuse (2012). The National Union of students published a paper in 2000 called Hidden marks which examines the impact of sexual violence and its prevelence wihtin Universities.

As an organisation we provided a free confidential and non judgemental service to women aged 16+ who have experienced any form of rape and/or sexual abuse at any time during their lives. We provide a telephone helpline service, counselling and and Independent sexual violence advisory service (ISVA). these can be accessed through our website www.wmrsasc.org.uk

If you would like to access support, please do not hesitate to contact us

That advert is not trying to put blame on the women, it is trying to show that there is an increased risk of it happening if the women is paraletic.
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Trying to prevent something through common sense is not passing blame.

wmrsasc - your comments above totally miss the point well made by the vast majority of the contributors to this piece - no one, in anything that i have read is suggesting that rape or sexual assault is ever the victims fault - but clearly, people need to take responsibility for themselves - if you leave your expensive mobile phone on show in your car and leave it overnight parked in the middle of a city, then in the morning, if its stolen, its not your fault, but was there something you could have done to prevent it? yes - the same is true of rape and sexual assault - the poster from the police advocated common sense - why is it so difficult to understand that? i said in my first comment that rape and sexual assault are essentially about the power and control the perpetrator has over the victim - minimising that minimises the risk of any offence taking place - i actually think that the approach being taken by wmrsasc is very disempowering to victims, essentially you are saying to victims that if rape or sexual assault is going to happen, then so be it, its going to happen, and there is nothing that victims or potential victims can do to stop it happening - this is insulting and utter rubbish........wmrsa
sc - if you follow your line of thinking through to its logical conclusion it would never be permissible to suggest that someone carries an alarm for fear of being attacked or walks through a well lit area at night instead of through a dark deserted alleyway, because if rape or sexual assault is going to happen it will happen anyway - clearly this is the wrong way to think, its about pointing out common sense to people and helping empower them not to become a victim - and i would have thought that this was very much in the ethos of wmrsasc........you talk of common misconceptions......
.maybe you are out of touch with the majority of opinion......i also think you are muddling your statistics when you say that 86% of assaults are caused by someone the victim knows - maybe they are but that doesn't mean there isn't an element of opportunism in them - again, its about empowering people not to become victims, not suggesting people are responsible if they become one.......you talk about sexual violence in schools - i work for a local authority and do work with schools and community groups on this and again can't help but feel that common sense needs to be applied - in my experience, if the authorities intervene too early in a childs life if some sort of incident has occurred then the risk is greatly raised of that child or young person going on to commit similar offences in the future - not the other way round - yes, challenge entrenched attitudes, myths and stereotypes but do so with a degree of common sense and it is this i think that your comments and those of pinkfluff have been lacking....

Dear Evesham 123
Thank you for your comments, in response:
The statistics are correct
Women are not mobile phones or houses and cannot be locked away and to suggest for a minute that theft in someway correlates to rape diminshes the issue and the seriousness of the offence. You will recover from your phone being stolen relatively quickly, the same cannot be said about rape.

We object to this campaign because of the images and wording used. There are far better, more effective materials available which tackle alcohol and sexual violence without vicitm blaming or suggesting that rape is a 50/50 responsibility.
these posters send the wrong message because you would never say to a woman who was raped when she was drunk that she should accept that had she not been she wouldn't have been raped.

Had the police chosen other materials we would have been able to support them wholeheartedly, as we have in the past.


Alcohol is often involved in cases of rape, and is one of the most commonly cited factors in attempts to explain or excuse it.

However, although alcohol consumption is something in which anyone over 18 is free to indulge, in the public discourse around rape and sexual assault, its significance is something that plays out very differently for women than it does for men.

Alcohol is seen both as something that greatly increases the vulnerability of women not only to rape, but also, perversely, to accusations of blame for that rape. Although it is men who perpetrate rape, it is women who are urged to modify their behaviour by abstaining or drinking less, and thus accommodate the danger posed by predatory men.

Alcohol is used by men who rape both as a means of incapacitating the women they assault, and also as an excuse for their own behaviour.

The result of this is that behaviour which genuinely is problematic (to the extent that it is criminal) – the willingness of so many men to target and exploit women who are drunk, or use alcohol as an excuse for assaulting them – is rarely challenged or even addressed.

And until it is, and we stop blaming women for rape because they were drinking, women will continue to pay for the double standard we apply where alcohol consumption is concerned.

A poster campaign which tells women that they might have some responsibility for being raped does not inspire confidence in the police force to take rape victims seriously.

wmrsasc, I find evesham123 comments sensible.
You conveniently make no comment regarding dark alleys etc., but prefer to rebuff sensible precautionary measures.
It appears to me that you have used the wrong wording to try and convince others of your view, especially with the anti male theme throughout your response.
The Police only had a few words to use on their poster to give impact, and they have done so successfully.

i don't diminish the seriousness of rape and sexual assault - i am not trying to claim that the effect on a victim is the same as that of a theft......but i return to my point about common sense....you state that alcohol increases a woman's vulnerability to rape......what is wrong with trying to urge women to look after themselves - once someone has become a victim we don't suggest that the victims own actions are responsible for their situation - what I, and most of the comments on here are getting at, is helping protect victims by trying to ensure they don't become victims in the first place........i have taken the following sentence off the victim support website......."Men can be victims of sexual attack regardless of their sexual orientation. And while the attacker is more often male, men can be and are sexually assaulted by women".........i would suggest that the same point regarding alcohol can be made of male victims - not their fault in any way if they become a victim but a sensible precaution to try and look after yourself in the first place........you state that one of your problems with the posters is that they are saying to the woman, had you not been drunk, you wouldn't have been raped.........no one is saying that .........that is a stretch and a leap that most people cannot see.......if a woman, or a man is raped who is drunk, noone says to them that they wouldn't have been raped if they hadn't been drunk because that takes away all responsibility from the perpetrator.......bu
t its surely sensible to enable the victim to recover and feel empowered once again, however long that may take, and part of that might be about addressing alcohol consumption - and that can be done without blaming the victim.......i was at uni once, i remember there was a spate of sexual assaults on campus around freshers week.......one of the things that the student union did was offer personal alarms to all students (male and female) in the halls nearest where these had happened - wmrsasc - if you follow your logic then the student union shouldn't have needed to do this as rape will happen whatever if its going to happen......i would argue that it was a sensible move to protect students........if then someone was raped who hadn't used an alarm to fend off their attacker then did it mean they were to blame - no, of course not, but part of helping them feel safe in the future in that case may be them using an alarm in similar situations - thats the same point........

I don' t quite follow the reasoning here "Women are not mobile phones or houses and cannot be locked away and to suggest for a minute that theft in someway correlates to rape diminshes the issue and the seriousness of the offence" -

In which case if theft is only minor then I won't bother locking my car or my house and I'll leave all the windows open when either is unattended.

Wmrsasc's repsonses seem to run along the lines of 'we shouldn't have to do this, its the fault of the perpetrator etc etc' which in an ideal world is correct, but in the real world you should take steps to protect yourself.

The more serious the nature of the offence then surely the more precautions you take to prevent yourself becoming a victim. In Wmrsasc's ideal world we wouldn't have to take any precautions, however in the imperfect world in which we live it is surely more prudent to take such steps as are necessary in order to minimise your chances of being a victim.

As some people seem to be unable to understand the principles of common sense or a duty of care to oneself, I thought I'd put myself in the firing line too!

As the logical progression of ideas regarding protection of houses, cars, phones etc. from criminals is regarded (quite rightly) as impossible to compare to sexual assault/rape, let's try another example.....

Imagine yourself in the depths on the Syrian uprising at the moment, or even in our own fair land during any of the riots that have occurred in the past. Now while it is absolutely your given right to walk out of your door to visit your friends, family, shops or even go out and get plastered, there is always a possibility that you may get shot resulting in a whole host of possible injuries or even having your head blown off. Now while it is obviously not the victims fault (fault must lie with the Criminal who has illegally obtained the gun and ammo and whose finger is on the trigger, or the person who created or threw the petrol bomb at your head) surely anybody with a microgram of common sense must be aware that they can reduce the risk of death or injury to themselves by the decisions that they make, regardless of their legal right to freely do these things.

Do I take it that WMRSASC would get on there high horse if there were posters put up warning people not to go out of the house to visit friends, family etc in order to avoid possible death. Unfortunately the wording may unintentionally be interpreted by some as implying that if you go out of your front door while living in a war zone then it's your own fault if you get hurt or killed!

Come on guys, in the words of the TV meerkat.....SIMPLES

This has now become a bit silly. It's blatantly clear to anyone with an ounce of common sense that the poster campaign message is about damage limitation.

Studies and Statistics? One can be easily fooled by their results and findings and they should only be treated as a rough indication at best.

The police have made an effort and have done well to raise awareness on an A4 size piece of paper with a handful of words on it.

WMRSASC: Your responses are lengthy and increasingly suggestive, can you condense your message into an A4 poster? I think you'd be hard pushed.

Remember, when most people see a poster or advert they don't take time to get all 'deep' and consider semantics, they will take on board the content on face value and move on. Isn't this the whole point?

Poster A4 http://www.avaprojec
t.org.uk/media/82082
/rcew%20poster%20nov
ember%202011.pdf

I think wrmsasc is being counter productive, that advert is good and I reckon would be effective, damage limitation is correct.
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The phone analogy as well I think is good, common sense has to come in to it, not putting yourself in harms way is a good idea.
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A women not getting raped because she is sober and can tell what is happening is better than a drunk woman getting raped and the rapist being jailed, yes it is the rapists fault but it has still happened.

We'll I can't read that incomprehensible url, I've tried removing the %20 and putting in a / but it doesn't work, either way given the lack of the long responses posted earlier in the thread to the more recent posts that wrmsasc doesn't have an answer.

Interestingly and veering from the subject their own website states "We are unable to provide face to face support for men" even though male rape whilst occurring less often is % wise is more under-reported than female rape - This does beg the question are they really interested in helping all people who have suffered sexual abuse or just in pushing a feminist agenda?